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Topic/Question on: "Are the Dead in Heaven or Hell Right NOW?" Anonymous, You do great work. You are teaching people the Word while bringing them closer to God. I agree with you most of the time and I’ve enjoyed and learned from many of your videos. So, I was listening to your last one called: “The Resurrections in Revelation Chapter 20” where you made good points, and also a couple that, I believe, may be off. This was in the first half where your impetus was to prove that the dead are alive now. I lean toward the belief that the dead are not alive now, but, you did make good points to prove your case which leaves me to admonish myself to keep an open mind. After all, I am on this side now and don’t know for sure what awaits on the other side. The Bible seems to provide verses which can be used to prove opposite cases, but we know that the Word cannot contradict itself. Therefore, proper research should show which point of view is the prevailing wisdom in the Bible, as opposed to some verses which remain as outliers. I think you would agree that when you have many verses that say one thing, and only two or three that suggest the opposite, then, it is the general rule that the outliers are at fault within the specific translation that one is using, or the reader is at fault in his understanding. Let’s talk about the ones where your points are solid, where I had to pause to reconsider my earlier inclinations. You brought up the witch of Endor in 1 Samuel 28. I’m using the World English Bible unless where otherwise noted. In verse 15a:
As just an aside: he said that he came “up”, not down from heaven. Let’s put that aside for now. But your point is good! The text does say that Samuel came up, that Samuel said these things, and that he prophesied, and the prophecies came to pass. That’s a solid point. But he came “up”. We’ll put a pin in that for now. Your other great point was the transfiguration of Christ where the text does say that Moses and Elijah did appear. Again, this gives me pause where I must conclude that there’s some type of existence on the other side, in the present tense, independent of the future resurrections of the dead. Before I get into your points that didn’t hold as much water as the above, in my view, please allow me to highlight some verses that detract from the stance that the dead are alive now.
That last one is particularly pointed because John, who wrote that, was one of the three with Christ who witnessed the transfiguration. Moses and Elijah didn’t ascend into heaven? Well, if they didn’t, why do we think that Aunt Sally did? So then, where were Moses and Elijah prior to the transfiguration, since they couldn’t have come down from heaven? Did they come “up” as Samuel came “up”? Samuel said he was “disturbed”. A sleeping person is disturbed. Was he sleeping in the ground, to wit, he was “disturbed” and came “up”? I’m not concluding anything at this juncture, I’m merely asking questions. Perhaps this verse lends a clue:
See, now it’s starting to make sense. The dead, like Samuel, sleep in the dust of the earth. Therefore, he if was brought “up”, he would certainly feel “disturbed”, i.e. disturbed from sleep. I don’t know what “sleep” means in the context of death since I have not yet made that transition, but in the context of which it is used, it certainly implies a dormant state. Do they dream? I don’t know. Maybe that’s a foolish question. Christ reaffirms this concept of “sleep” in regard to the dead:
There are many more verses like that, and I can’t get to all of them, but here’s one from the Apostle Paul where he brings conclusive clarity to this subject:
Here, again, we have that notion of being brought “up” as was Samuel, who, according to Daniel, was asleep in the dust of the earth, for, “the dead in Christ will rise”. Here, we have the preponderance of evidence that say that the dead are asleep in the dust of the earth until one of the resurrections. And you are right that there are two: the resurrection of the just, and the resurrection of the unjust. But I don’t want to get into details of all that. The point is, neither Daniel, Christ nor Paul, in the above instances where they had perfect opportunity, suggested that the dead are in heaven. No, on the contrary, they took these opportunities to say that the dead are asleep until a future resurrection. Then, you talk about the lesson in which Christ taught about Lazarus in the bosom of Abraham. The text in question is Luke 16:19-31. This is where you may be engaging in some confirmation bias. Your point is that Lazarus died and went to heaven, whereas the evil rich man went to hell. And you’re saying that this was not a parable because Christ didn’t say it was a parable. And your conclusion is that the dead go either to heaven or hell immediately after death. There’s a couple of problems with how you draw your conclusions. Firstly, the story describes “Abraham’s bosom”, it does not say, “heaven”. Why did Christ choose those words: “Abraham’s bosom”? Why didn’t he just say, “heaven”, or “paradise”? Never in any other place in the Bible is a heavenly paradise where the souls go after death called “Abraham’s bosom”. I will not, at this time, research why Christ chose that phrase only for this story. But the point is that you’re assuming that “Abraham’s bosom” is the concept of heaven where angels play harps on fluffy clouds, where all the good souls go immediately after death (excuse my silliness). That’s a lot of assuming. Secondly, you are assuming that “hell” in this story means a place for bad souls to go where they are tormented for eternity by fire and red demons using pitchforks (again being silly to make a point). But the word “hell” in the verse, and many others, is “hades” in Greek, which is equivalent to the Hebrew “sheol” where all the dead go as described throughout the Old Testament. They both mean the same thing: the grave. Nevertheless, if this is not a parable but a true story, then you have an excellent point. You’re reasoning is that Christ is saying that these things did happen as a matter of fact, and that he did not say that this is a parable. The only problem is that Christ told many stories as if they happened, and without first saying they were parables just like he did with the Lazarus story:
Were all these true stories? No, they were all parables because:
Then, obviously, the same applies to the Lazarus story. At one point you point to this verse:
Aside from the fact that the definition of “paradise” is a garden on Earth, like the garden of Eden and the Kingdom of God described in the Book of Revelation (remember “the meek shall inherit the Earth”), the issue with the above verse may just be punctuation. I’m sure you know that the original Hebrew Old Testament, and Greek & Aramaic New Testament had no punctuation. Always keep that in mind when you are reading Scripture. Any punctuation you see are mere suggestions. Sometimes, one comma in the wrong position can distort the original intent completely. So, move the comma one word over and you have:
One little comma can change the whole meaning. Was the man with Jesus in paradise on the same day they were crucified, or was Messiah talking about a future time, like after the general resurrection of the dead as described in the Book of Revelation? We are not going to go down a doctrinal rabbit hole here. The point is that all punctuation in our modern Bibles are based solely on conjecture and may not always be accurate to the original intent of any given passage, because there was no punctuation in Scripture when they were originally written. Then you quote the following text:
And you use this to conclude that the dead are in the typical, Catholic versions of heaven or hell right now, but that glosses over the context set out in the preliminary words: “But that the dead are raised . . .” Obviously, he is talking about the resurrection of the dead, because in that same chapter, just ten verses earlier, it says:
So, yes, “all are alive to him [God]”. There’s no contradiction there. Samuel was “disturbed” and came “up”, not down. Daniel said, “those who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.” Of course, they’re alive to God even before the resurrection because they’re sleeping. Jesus agrees: “She isn’t dead, but sleeping.” The Apostle Paul agrees: “But we don’t want you to be ignorant, brothers, concerning those who have fallen asleep . . . The dead in Christ will rise first . . .” The Apostle John agrees:
And as for the second resurrection, John wrote:
I don’t pretend to know everything. In some cases, we have to admit that we don’t know something. What is it like to be asleep in the dust of the earth? I don’t know, but I do know that it cannot be heaven, because heaven is above, not below where Samuel would have to come “up”, or where the dead would have to be “raised”. And we cannot ask the prophet Samuel because God forbids us to try to commune with the dead. All I’m asking is that you think about this more. If you do that much, perhaps I didn’t waste my time writing to you. But it’s never a waste of my time writing to you, or listening to you, as I respect you. Thanks for all you do, and thanks for hearing me out. Cheers. |
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